October 1, 2001
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[Ed. Note: The series of posts below are reproduced unedited.]
9/11 Disaster - Open Forum
This is an open forum for exchanging information and viewpoints concerning the 9/11 tragedy and related issues.
please don't compound this terrible tragedy by bashing ethnic or religious groups for the acts of fringe extremists.
Author: < Steel > [2001-09-12 12:31:20]
Subject: The Armagheddon Game
Panic is a fear driven emotional state. It often manifests in subtle ways such as noted here by commentary regarding 'end times' language.
Buying into 'fear' related rhetorics in many ways allow the perpetrators of fear inducing behaviors the opportunity to win. If you buy the idea - you are in a sense accepting that you should be afraid - they win.
Keep in mind that this was actually an attack upon giant financial corporations by person or persons (entities) unknown. Remember that more than 50 of the top 100 economies of the world are not countries but corporations.
To assume that this attack was for purposes of destabilization (of America) is to look at the veneer or surface (to listen to what you are being told) and not explore (or think) below. To assume that this attack was externally sourced suggests that it is not possible to 'use' extremists to other ends (a foolish assumption particularly given the size, extreme wealth and self interests of both foreign and domestic countries and businesses).
To understand ones enemy you must look at what the outcome actually suggests. What has occurred? Essentially 'frozen' the world movement of money. And, created a scenario which will 'allow' America to militarily attack one or more countries.
Follow the money - who benefits?
While the attacks appear catastrophic on the surface in reality 99% of Americans went to work today, paid their bills, washed their cars and argued with their spouses. We mourn and weep for the loss of the innocent lives of everyday people just like you and me but fundamentally we know that these buildings are just concrete and steel, they merely house us, they are NOT us.
As much as we hurt - we as Americans should not be played, led or otherwise manipulated.
If our leadership 'decides' to 'punish' the Taliban then each of us should be clear on the simple fact that we have probably not heard a full and truthful account of how and why 1&2WTC were attacked. What we do hear via the media is scripted, directed and delivered to incite positive sentiment.
I myself never forget that this administration has strong ties to oil, gas and the Arab world. Nor do I forget that our 'villian' Osama Bin Laden has strong ties to oil, gas and the Arab world.
I don't have answers for you except to say that the very best thing to do is go to work, pet your dog, donate some blood, hug your children and generally not give in to the 'inducement to fear' nor the incendiary language to 'hate' other human beings.
Strength comes in being resiliant, stoic, determined. We will rebuild, we will walk forward, we will endeavor to live with dignity, as common, everyday Americans.
Author: < worldcitizen > 09/12 12:46:45
Subject: the armagheddon game - ??
where are you coming from?? you play like your are some calm cool sublime revolutionary. you think anyone but you is thinking it's a crime against the building? the building means NOTHING to probably 97% of the people of this country. we mourn the savage attack on MOTHERS, FATHERS, SISTERS, BROTHERS, SONS, and DAUGHTERS! You sit there with some smug thinnly veiled message that an entity having ties to corporations, or people that have ties to our country strategically or financially are involved with this?? what is your friggin alterior motive? you are the problem.
Author: < Steel > 09/12 13:16:55
Do you 'always' believe the media?
Do you feel justified right now in sending American men and women over to kill 'x' numbered working class men and women in some foreign country? Men and women and children JUST LIKE YOU - living their life as best they can.
Will that put a bandaide on your pain?
Or is it just murder backed by the images of carnage we have witnessed? A way for you to justify killing?
Do we become our own enemy?
If gas prices go up 20% now - remind me who profited from this murderous assault again? They were topping $5.00 per gallon at some stations in the midwest yesterday. Gee -
Do you truly believe that money is NOT a motivating factor in the violence that occurs everywhere on this planet? Or that money is not a player in this tragedy too?
Take a moment to remember that during the days of former President Bush and before him Reagan that WE the American people through efforts of our intelligence community did fund, train and have enormously strong ties with now villian 'Laden'.
Coincidence - right?
It shouldn't matter that our current administration wants to spend billions on military expansion and prior to yesterday couldn't squeeze a penny out of our non-existant 'surplus'.
Create an enemy and voila' out pops your social security FUTURE (money) pouring down the old drain into the pockets of 'corporations' with monopolies on the manufacture of military goods.
Perhaps you will make money on a military expansion and rising gas prices - me, I don't have stock in either.
Thinking is NEVER the problem.
Author: < dvoodoo > 09/12 13:35:46
I hear your comments, and your observation RE: buildings not being people may be true.
But you are sadly underestimating the price that was paid by the victims of this attack.
I don't think any person is worried about the buildings, it is the lives lost.
However silly or unjustified it may seem to you that our military leaders will demand a retribution, one is coming.
You'd better get ready, It will not be pretty.
This wasn't just an attack on faceless corpoartions, this hit awide cross section of working people, njanitors, cafeteria workers, firefighters etc.
Don't waste your time sympathisizing with evil...it doesn't help anyone...
if you lost a relative in that horrible blast, I don't think you'd be mouthing off quite so smugly right now...
A price was paid by the city of New York, The U.S and and as Bush calls 'em 'The Freedom Loving Peoples Of The World'.
Whatever, I am not a jingoistic republocrat, but I, along with millions will will understand any attack conducted under the auspices of The U.S military at this juncture.
If they have to throw a dart at a map to find a suitable country on a map...you can be sure most Americans will be finwe with it.
Author: < Steel > 09/12 14:23:49
Subject: the desire to eradicate 'evil'
My freedom does not depend on your loss of freedom - my freedom inherently affirms your freedom.
The desire to eradicate 'evil' is the impulse of 'evil' itself. Example - Hitlers desire to eradicate his perception of 'evil' (Jewish people) was the impulse of 'evil' itself.
Is the Palestinian child celebrating the 'death of Americans' before the camera 'evil'?
Do you wish to become 'god' - identify with certainty 'people, country, religious identity' who you DECIDE are 'evil' (by your standards), then to execute them with impunity?
Isn't that exactly what we are being told was done at 1&2WTC - if you adopt these behaviors do you not then BECOME that which you rail against as 'being' evil?
Does this reduce your fear? Does it protect the dead and dying?
Under the 'constant' danger of war or threat the people of a country become more attentive, compliant and obedient to those governing their societies.
When a governing body has failed to excite the willful 'peaceful' compliance, attention and obedience of its population one method of 'correcting' this is to ensure that 'threat' exists.
Do you remember the Cold War (now known to have been a fabricated device used for military spending)?
To murder thousands of innocent men, women and children will not protect you for you are not in danger. To murder through an announcement of 'war' is a way for a nation to 'identify' itself (show face).
The men and women of 1&2WTC cannot be 'protected' by future actions, the criminal actions against them occurred in the past and cannot be rewritten.
Violence does not end violence but continues violence.
Nothing will ever heal the pain of losing the people we have lost.
Are you a just person?
Will you allow the machinations of other people to steal your dignity, your ethics, your morality, your beliefs, your faith, your human integrity?
When you lose these parts of yourself, are you free?
Can we protect ourselves from such actions of violence in the future? I would guess the true answer to that question to be no. A person willing to suicide themselves can take individual action at any time, in any society.
We rest on the razorblade of personal rights and privacy. Intelligence gathering by the investigation of individuals is probably the best defense against actions of great violence - however you should never forget that the collection of intelligence information is at great cost to our rights to privacy, to think and believe what we wish. The fundamentals of what we believe to be 'freedom'. If you take away your personal freedom - you will have no freedom to protect.
So, maybe we walk the rough road toward justice knowing it will never make what happened any better - but at the end of the day we will still be free. Through justice we may preserve that freedom.
Author: < dvoodoo > 09/12 15:37:26
Subject: pay attention to the atmosphere..if you want to breathe
I do not attempt to affirm your freedom, neither do I want you to worry about mine.
But you are aware , as well as I, that their are many issues that bring a tradgedy of this size to fruition.
'evil' is certainly one of them. We all may not be able to describe it, but we know it when we see it...
What i was describing was the obvious fact that a U.S military reaction will bring some collective sense of vengenace ( however useless you think that is) to a country whose citizens have been unwittingly victimized.
Amazingly, many Americans seem shocked to find themselves a target and appear completely unawre that most Arab countries believe the United States is their sworn enemy. Our nation is not only seen as greedy, racist, and an international bully et. al. It is also the main financial, military and political supporter of the Jewish state of Israel and that pits us in a multi-thousand year holy war that the average American cannot even fathom.
In a bizarre outburst, on ABC's telecast yesterday, while the president cowered in a Nebraska bunker, Texan crony of Bush, James A Baker, former secretary of state, condemned not merely the state of US/Arab relations but the 1970's Church commitee hearings on US Intelligence. Baker came close to naming Jewish legislator Bella Abzug's 1973 CIA hearings as the true cause of US vulnerability. Baker has taken to the airwaves calling for a resumption of 'The Dirty Nasty Business' ( his emphasis) of more sustained covert operations.
I don't condone a random attack, but I wouldn't try to stop it either...I know better than to get it the way of such 'dirty nasty business'...
here is a list of just a very few of the firms whose offices were pummeled into non-existence...
Royal Thai Airlines
NY Metro Transportation Council
Windows On The World Restaurant
Children's Discovery Center
American Shipper Magazine
Sam Goody Music
a complete list of tenants can be downloaded in Excel or PDF if you'd like to study it for a somehow justifiable action against those 'giant corporate entities' you condoned... http://www.costargroup.com/wtc/
The terrible human cost of cleaning this mess up will be all our freedoms. The warmongers wil prevail...they have the weapons and the desire...Netan-Yahoo! Colin Powell, and all those bastards want blood...buckets of it...
It is expected when airports resume service, our individual freedoms will be the cost of doing business. Curbside check ins will no longer be allowed. Only ticketed passengers will be allowed into concourses and as part of chasing our own tail, searches will be longer, more tedious and more thorough.
I blame the terrorists, and I am angry. I have no sympathy for those that jeopardize or harbor their ilk. In many ways, I and millions of others have a justifiable desire, to see that our response is swift, brutal and strong...
These terrorists instead of furthering their cause, are only building up the makings of what amounts to a broad government endorsed racial/religious hatred in this country.
2/3 rds of citizens are willing to give their civil liberties to 'battle terrorism' and another 2/3rds want a military response.
By the way, I never said we could protect the dead, by having our military attack some far off land, their loss will be avenged ...
if you can't deal with it, turn off the T.v now...shut your eyes...
Remember if the people who did this, actually cared at all for human rights, for God/Allah, for the people in their homelands, or any human life at all, they wouldn't have done this...
Author: < labrat > 09/12 20:01:51
Subject: your reply is scary
dvoodoo, you propose one of the most horrific outcomes of this tragedy.
'These terrorists instead of furthering their cause, are only building up the makings of what amounts to a broad government endorsed racial/religious hatred in this country.'
Steel is correct, to respond with random acts of sanctioned terrorism on a nation/race/religion would be EVIL.
Isn't there a way to avenge our people's death without lowering ourselves to their level?
Author: < TrUtH > 09/12 16:28:30
Subject: Utopian . . how nice
retaliation against evil makes us evil?
what does doing nothing make us?
think about that the next time you're out marching in support of hate crime legislation.
Author: < stinkypants > 09/12 20:25:41
Subject: i smell a rat
there are just too many familiar faces coming up again to beleive that this was simply an act of anti-american sentiment. to even think that retaliation is justified is a horror and an affront to any peace-loving person. violence begets violence. there is no question about that, and no terrorist is gonna stop just because we strike back.
the fact is that WE (the US) are the terrorists. THIS ACT was the retaliation. and a pathetic one at that, considering it was carried out only by force of will and a lousy pocket knife. do you think our troops have that kind of conviction? seems to me we stand behind our guns. no amount of 'security' or 'defence' could have stopped what happened. and to think that increasing the tax spending for bigger guns will help is ludicrus.
what really stinks is that we stand on the brink of one of the largest land grabs since the roman empire. imagine us taking afghanastan. we already have isreal, jordan, saudi arabia, and probably more than a few more. to think that our oil-luvin prez is interested only in retribution for his citizens is a mistake. remember when his pappy was the prez? his offspring intends to finish the deal.
the fact is we're already at war in that part of the world. have been for ten years or more. we've totally destroyed iraq because they refused our advances. they don't even own the air that they breathe. the us has made a very few men uber-rich from oil interests, and the rest suffer in the war-inflicted poverty of their resistence.
yes, it's immensely sad the loss of life yesterday, but this kind of thing goes on nearly every day in the middle east. to buy into the idea of sympathy, fear and retaliation is only buying into the evil we have already come to feel the weight of. it will mean not only the loss of more innocent life, but a serious loss of the civil liberties of the living. it will turn the middle east into an american colony, and wipe out what is left of the already state-less palestinians. it will mean that we pay the price of the dishevled corporations whose headquaters were the WTC. and ultimately that we as american citizens have bowed down to the corporate devil.
nevertheless, i'm sure that the US will find a scapegoat, and never have to reveal the truth. they've got the whole country spitting at arabs and screaming for blood. it's really sad that the media is so quick to jump to conclusions, and so eager to serve the coporate world. after all, it could have been me.
Author: < janedoe99999 > 09/12 15:36:32
Subject: re: I don't have answers for you except to say that the very bes
Had people been aware that there was a threat to our nation weeks even months ago by specific terrorist groups and been instructed to take take precautions perhaps they'd be able to take part in the activities I've copied from your entry below. Minimalizing this issue shows an extreme lack of empathy for victims and victims families of this tragedy. Not taking threats to our country in the past got us where we are today. Acting as if nothing can happen to us got thousands of American's killed. You wash your car...I think I'll focus on the threat to our country.
"re: I don't have answers for you except to say that the very best thing to do is go to work, pet your dog, donate some blood, hug your children and generally not give in to the 'inducement to fear' nor the incendiary language to 'hate' other human beings.
Strength comes in being resiliant, stoic, determined. We will rebuild, we will walk forward, we will endeavor to live with dignity, as common, everyday Americans.
Author < giulia > 09/13 03:39:07
Subject: from an outsider
As a non American citizen of the world, I would like to express my solidarity to all of you - I think it's important that you keep on talking and this forum for sure helps. Many people here realize that part of your problem there is that so many Americans do not follow international politics and what goes generally on in the world. That's why so many people are not aware of being a target and of representing an enemy for many other countries. I think this is a sad chance to start re-thinking in bigger terms about your identity as individuals and the choices you make. It probably won't stop the violence but it would make people feel more in power of their lives anyway. In any case, I am shocked and traumatized and feel for you all.
Author: < girdie > 09/13 09:53:05
This is brilliant. Thank You.
'We mourn and weep for the loss of the innocent lives of everyday people just like you and me but fundamentally we know that these buildings are just concrete and steel, they merely house us, they are NOT us'
Author: < janedoe9999 > 09/13 13:52:33
It's basically Bush's speech with some words switched around. Yes..very brilliant and original-when Bush said it
Author: < VirginiaWoolf > 09/13 10:19:40
Subject: To enjoy freedom we have to control ourselves
thanks for the thought provoking commentary Steel. It seems to me that to find the genesis of these actions, we need to trace the beneficiaries of the results.
Author: < elspeth > 09/13 14:42:52
Subject: Open YOUR eyes This is in response to 'The Armagheddon Game' posting by 'Steel'-- First of all, what the hell are you trying to get at? Maybe if you articulated your thoughts a little more clearly, I wouldn't be feeling the way I feel right now. You seem just as blind and just as brainwashed as any of us 'common, everyday Americans'. Who benefits from destroying the world economy? No one. Who benefits from attacking corporations? I say 'no one', but if you have a better answer, by all means feel free to post it. Who benefits from destroying buildings, and causing the death of thousands of common everyday Americans who are just going about their daily lives? In the end, no one benefits from these actions. It doesn't take a supergenius to conclude that actions such as these are wrong, and should not be tolerated. Do you really think that if you refuse to confront this it will simply go away? How long do you think you'll be able to about your life with dignity, going to work and petting your dog without a tragedy of equal or greater magnitude putting a final end to to your ability (let alone everyone else's) to do so freely? Your head is so far up your under-educated and self-righteous ass you can't even see the flaws in your poorly presented point of view. If this is what America is made of, maybe we do deserve what we get, just as our 'villain' bin Laden and plenty of other tragically misguided souls have indicated in the past two days.
Author: < phicrappazappa > 09/20 06:59:54
Subject: Pull YOUR head out...
Your attack comes out of blind ignorance. Just a few points:
Who benefits? Israel - they now have pretty much carte blanche to wipe out the rock and bottle throwing Palestinian terrorists. Israel & the U.S Inc., just pulled out of the UN meeting on racism, calling it a farce. It is no farce - for either country.
Nothing benefits a toiletbound economy more so than a war. Wow! Like WWII
The FBI/CIA were trashed by freedom loving Americans when they unveiled their Internet Carnivore program. Guess what? It's back now, bigger and badder than ever - plus now they have the authority to monitor cell phones. Big Brother is no joke.
Osama Bin Ladin Osama Bin Oswald Osama Bin McVeigh. The media was pumping this crap before the builings hit the ground. Beat the war drums.
Bush now has a blank check to bomb the Hell out of whatever countries his predecessors missed. We have been the terrorists, and still are. 50 billion pledged to prop the economy - billions more to prop the airlines. Have you forgotten this is not their money, it is ours?
I didn't know we trained the terrorist pilots in Arabic. And you know this towelhead was dumb - he forgot to take his book with him.
Do we know it was Bin Ladin? No. Well, the media does, and Orrin Shill Hatch; but the truth does not know. Does it matter? No. We need a war. Do we know where he is? No, not really: but we think.... we'll start by blowing up Afghanistan. I disagree -
We could start by bombing San Diego, or Miami, or Boston. We know for a fact terrorists were there.
Cowards do not sacrifice their lives for their beliefs. Cowards sit in slave/taxpayer built bunkers and decree that their slaves commit their children to the great war. The war of their creation.
Where were our 'leaders' during the attack? The prime function of Government is to secure and protect its citizens. There was ample advance warning - just like Pearl Harbor. It simply didn't fit the agenda.
Can we fire these clowns? Hell, we would be in jail for such negligence. But the game is fixed - with our own money.
Even Fox News had a dumbass info-babe state how it woul be a good trade for us to give up some librties for our security. What security? Polls are now taken to see if we will agree to such. 36% of Americans at last count are traitors and assholes. Go back to your couch and the glowing box. Chant your mantras - beat your war drums. Sacrifice your innocent for the guilty. Pray for those that have already paid the price.
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